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RandomGerm4n 22 hours ago [-]
I wish lists like this were curated more carefully. Just because a company is European doesn't automatically make it better. For example, Gigaset is listed as one of the alternatives to the iPhone. They distributed malware to end users via their official update servers and then failed to inform them about it. Something like this should be an absolute no go for a smartphone manufacturer unless it's properly addressed.
Furthermore for Visual Studio Code it lists only IntelliJ IDEA as an alternative. There are also alternatives such as VSCodium, Neovim, or Emacs. In some cases, the alternative to an American company should not be a European company, but rather free software.
perelin 19 hours ago [-]
Agree. As an european I would go so far to say that a lot of european alternatives are not better at all. Some form of quality/trust indicator would be helpful though. No company that is distributing malware to its customers should be on any recommendation list.
Matl 22 hours ago [-]
> There are also alternatives such as VSCodium, Neovim, or Emacs. In some cases, the alternative to an American company should not be a European company, but rather free software.
I agree in theory but VSCodium wouldn't be a thing without Microsoft continuing development of VS Code so you're dependent on American software nonetheless. If the goal is true sovereignty then VSCodium isn't it unless it becomes a truly independent fork aka when LibreOffice forked OpenOffice.
herbst 24 hours ago [-]
It's a little weird in some places.
Snickers for example shows first "Alprose" which I never heard, it's a small company that's not even common IN Switzerland. It lists Julius mainl which if it does chocolate its far from their actual business. And half of the other companies also seem regional niche stuff.
Dunno but gives a very vibe coded vibe
shevy-java 23 hours ago [-]
I can not comment on the vibe coded issue or not, but the name
Alprose is not really a surprising name at all.
Alps are "Die Alpen" in german, and rose is rose too. So, a rose
or a flower in a mountaineous area. It kind of fits to Switzerland.
Renaming operations are often strange: for instance, the name
Raider before it then became Twix. I always found the renaming
part peculiar; guess Twix is easier to market than Raider but
both names are strange to begin with.
I could also swear that Raider tasted better than Twix, but this
could be to my aging cells no longer being as performant as they
once were. Or they changed the recipe to the worse.
Having said that, I guess that website was AI slop generated, so no wonder it has low quality. I try to avoid AI in general, in particular the low quality slops; sadly youtube is being infected with it, I can no longer watch shorts - so many are just AI spam nowadays.
herbst 15 hours ago [-]
I didn't mean the name is strange, it's just a strange example to show up first as it's a very niche company you won't easily find to buy anywhere in Europe.
My parents also swear raider was the better product. Not sure if I ever tried one.
mejutoco 23 hours ago [-]
> guess Twix is easier to market than Raider but both names are strange to begin with.
From your wikipedia link
> The name is a portmanteau of "twin sticks
pavlov 22 hours ago [-]
They also make a mini-Twix package that’s just a single stick.
For consistency it ought to be called Unix.
emilsmeznieks 2 hours ago [-]
Here's a European alternative to Instinct: https://usebris.com/ you can just reach out to that email for the invite link
gandhiandy69 23 hours ago [-]
Finally found the European alternative to Salesforce: SAP!
steinwinde 22 hours ago [-]
This dispels all my doubts regarding the utility of this website.
ed_balls 23 hours ago [-]
I don't think anyone review these. How come Ducati is an alternative to Xiaomi?
esperent 23 hours ago [-]
Anything is an alternative to anything else if you think about it. Want a Chinese smartphone? Have you considered eating a delicious European made chocolate bar instead?
At least that's the vibe I'm getting from this site.
hobo123 22 hours ago [-]
Well, instead of chatting online you just ride your motorbike to friends.
GreyStache 22 hours ago [-]
I guess both produce two-wheeled one-person mobility devices? There is some overlap in utility, but the audience doubting between a petro motorcycle and an electric scooter would be vanishingly thin, I think.
genezeta 13 hours ago [-]
While certainly not their main focus or most well known product, Ducati has a line of electric bicycles. https://www.ducati.com/es/es/e-bike
Not scooters though.
alkyon 21 hours ago [-]
These EU alternatives are in fact increasingly valuable for US-based political activists:
Proud european here, I like the idea! Would be nice to have it translated in all european languages, and btw clicking on german doesn't work...
david-gpu 17 hours ago [-]
I wish the EU would promote English as a pan-European lingua franca. Sort of how it is used in India.
Having a common (second) language is a first step towards understanding each other's culture better. And that in turn facilitates a federal EU. It can't be done overnight, but it is a goal I wish we would pursue more actively.
Viliam1234 15 hours ago [-]
Or there is Esperanto, which can be learned at 10% of the time and effort.
One or two years at school would be enough, which means that the entire problem could be fixed in a year.
But that's not how things work in real life. Just because something is a good idea doesn't mean it's going to happen.
david-gpu 15 hours ago [-]
Esperanto has been dead for decades. English is the world's lingua franca in trade, science and technology.
The idea that a language, any language, can be learned in a year or two is not consistent with observation. Just think of any immigrant you have ever ran into in real life.
thinker34 1 days ago [-]
How do Americans feel about these regionalistic sentiment based posts here on hacker news?. Trump kind helped accelerate this trend but is this generally good for the collective west?
levocardia 23 hours ago [-]
It's pretty dumb! I want the best software and the best hardware, no matter where it's made. Outside of extremely niche situations (e.g. military hardware) international trade is a positive good for all those involved. If you sleep on mattress from China, wear clothes from Vietnam, drink coffee from Ethiopia, eat food from Mexico, and use software from the United States, everyone involved in all of those countries wins: you win because you get the best product, and the companies win because they are financially rewarded for making the best product -- not for their postal address. C'mon people, this is basic economics.
yoavm 22 hours ago [-]
We all wanted that! But than we feared that the USA will just cut our payment systems, government emails and basically every online service we have as it tries to take over Greenland.
carlosjobim 22 hours ago [-]
Just the other day I saw a Facebook post advertising new artisanal coffee from a small Nordic village. Coffee...
glimshe 23 hours ago [-]
I don't feel anything yet because these efforts rarely go anywhere. The average person makes decisions on a multitude of factors but price, availability and convenience are the most important.
However, if this ever got big enough to hurt America's economy in a measurable way, the press would be all over it and Americans would retaliate. Considering how our trade is structured, Europe would experience a lot more pain.
In other words, I think it's cool that you raise visibility to your products. I think you should do it. But you'll lose more than we will if this gets too serious at America's expense.
Optimally we should all develop specialities and maintain a local reserve in most key industries. But all out of war isn't in our interest.
jacquesm 23 hours ago [-]
Retailiate FOR WHAT?
p2detar 23 hours ago [-]
More like retaliate HOW? Like I’ll care if Microsoft or Amazon services become more expensive in Europe. That’d actually be great for Europeans.
__d 22 hours ago [-]
Tariff European products.
Cut off access to payment networks.
Stop sharing satellite imagery.
There’s a lot of things the rest of the world has no or bad backups for.
jacquesm 22 hours ago [-]
The only thing that would achieve is that the rest of the world would decouple even faster from the USA. Incidentally, there are also a lot of things that the USA does not have backups for and this whole isolationism mindset always ends up with the rude awakening that no single party is larger than the rest of the world.
__d 14 hours ago [-]
Yes.
The US is choosing to leverage its position without much concern for those consequences right now. The rest of the world is busy routing around that, and the leverage is slowly reducing.
It will take time: the US was a key member of the world economy. But there’s frequent new reminders of why it’s necessary.
glimshe 23 hours ago [-]
If you encourage people to replace our products for yours just because of origin, we will do the same.
jacquesm 23 hours ago [-]
It would seem to me that you are willfully or accidentally commenting in a thread without awareness of the context. You retaliate because you think you have been wronged. If you believe the US is being wronged by Europe aiming to decouple from US tech because it is seen as a threat then I really wonder what playbook you are using.
glimshe 22 hours ago [-]
Neither. You are assuming we haven't been wronged by Europe. I assume you're European. I understand why you feel what you feel, but many people here also feel we've been abused for decades.
I'm not saying you have abused us, but maybe you should try to understand the perspectives that brought us to the current situation. Americans have complaints too.
I won't respond further messages on this thread because I think we should stop fighting. Maybe we aren't brothers but we are cousins. The real threats are elsewhere.
jacquesm 22 hours ago [-]
You speak for yourself, not for others.
> I understand why you feel what you feel, but many people here also feel we've been abused for decades.
That's on them. If people allow themselves to be misled that is not something that other countries should take into account when determining their foreign policy. If there is an abuser here then it is perfectly clear where that abuser is located.
> I'm not saying you have abused us, but maybe you should try to understand the perspectives that brought us to the current situation. Americans have complaints too.
And that's fine. But then you should do something about the root cause of those complaints and if and when you do you will find that maybe Europe and the bulk of the population of the USA have a lot in common.
> I won't respond further messages on this thread because I think we should stop fighting.
You are the one promoting that attitude with your original comment.
dns_snek 22 hours ago [-]
> but many people here also feel we've been abused for decades
These delusional beliefs have already lead to aggression and animosity towards the EU and the rest of the world, which is why this is happening in the first place.
What should the EU do? The current US administration is destroying every partnership you've built, giving up all of its soft power, it's single-handedly driving the world off a proverbial cliff with the war in Iran which will lead to yet another once-in-a-generation economic crisis and a new wave of totally preventable human suffering.
And for what? To persecute a mythical enemy of the Great American Prosperity? To divert attention away from domestic economic failures, unbelievable wealth disparity, from the fact the your country is ran by sadistic pedophiles? To intentionally weaken the rest of the world? To perpetuate a genocide?
The only sensible thing for the EU to do is to get off the damn ride. There's nothing we can do, short of becoming a vassal state of the US, that would appease the current US administration.
Framing this as an attack on the US is just typical DARVO tactics (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) and it's exactly why the EU needs to get away.
__d 23 hours ago [-]
Freedom Fries redux
Viliam1234 15 hours ago [-]
You can simply retaliate, without explaining for what. Or you can make up an excuse.
goodpoint 22 hours ago [-]
Retaliate for being the ones starting it.
jacquesm 22 hours ago [-]
Starting WHAT. Seriously, is there something in the water?
The US has gone out of its way to prove that it is an unreliable partner. To Europe, to Canada, to its allies all over the world. It is obvious that that would result in re-evaluation of the relationship. You can't just upend 80 years of building up a relationship and expect that it will be without consequences. Just like your spouse would have a right to re-evaluate their relationship with you if you punched them in the face to remind them that 'you hold all the cards'.
If you believe that the EU is 'starting it' you are exemplifying the mentality that lead us to where we are today: that might makes right and that if you're abused you should just take it and that even an attempt to leave is considered betrayal.
JumpCrisscross 1 days ago [-]
> How do Americans feel about these regionalistic sentiment based posts here on hacker news?
Mutt here. It’s annoying how feckless the European pushback is. Half of these alternatives either run significant rails through America or are insignificantly small. Meanwhile, our ambassador to Greece is busy selling her sugar daddy’s natural gas to Albania and Bulgaria [1]. (Nobody is even pretending the folks buying her corruption will be prosecuted. Athens held up Russian sanctions to get one of their tycoons a carve-out.)
Sure got more visible the recent years but the "trend" isn't new.
When sensitive data was a topic even 15 years ago we built European only solutions because America and it's barely existing privacy laws were not to trust. (Built software for government, universities and other companies back then)
From my POV this has nothing to do with orange guy but it's an ongoing trend of benefiting from our customer and data protection laws.
bulbar 23 hours ago [-]
It was always a thing, but Trump made it very clear that he doesn't consider anybody of the western world an ally. So the intensity is quite new.
andsoitis 22 hours ago [-]
> How do Americans feel about these regionalistic sentiment based posts
It seems like a provincial mindset.
hobo123 22 hours ago [-]
When I would have to describe Europe or Germany as compared to US, provincial is exactly the word I would use.
andsoitis 21 hours ago [-]
For clarity, I’m not describing Europe or Germany, I’m characterizing the sentiment.
jurf 22 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure about sentiment, buying local always made sense, as you invest into your surroundings, to some degree.
onel 22 hours ago [-]
I don't think a good idea to limit yourself to solutions only from your geographical area, but it's also a very ingrained " not from my tribe" human sentiment. It's hard to fight it.
trentearl 24 hours ago [-]
It's a bit ironic to fight protectionism with consumer nationalism, but good from a consumer awareness perspective.
nozzlegear 18 hours ago [-]
This is how I feel about it as an American. More options and competition is always good, but fighting protectionism by becoming protectionist and insular yourself is IMO the wrong choice.
trimethylpurine 24 hours ago [-]
Google's, Apple's, and Microsoft's profit first attitude has garnered the same resentment in Europe that they enjoy in the US. There's nothing surprising here. What will be surprising is if the push to move away works in Europe, where it hasn't worked in the US, so far.
I think you're attributing Big Tech's bad behavior to politicians where you should be attributing politicians' bad behavior to Big Tech's lobbying.
hogs_get_fat 23 hours ago [-]
That doesn't make sense. If the "profit-first" attitude of the company problem, why is booking.com, with it's non-existent fraud-prevention and useless support, recommended as an alternative to Airbnb?
trimethylpurine 23 hours ago [-]
Because it's assumed that booking.com isn't hosted in the US where privacy and data protection laws are looser. Does that make sense?
You can also read the website. It lists reasons why people should move. No mention of Donald Trump.
That makes perfect sense. Half of Europeans vote right, just like Americans. There's no need for injecting super villains and otherism into the conversation.
cindyllm 22 hours ago [-]
[dead]
SpicyLemonZest 1 days ago [-]
I wish the guy motivating this didn't exist, but I would love for Europe to develop genuinely competitive software products. I don't think it's good even for us Americans that so much software is developed by an American monoculture; we benefit greatly from the existence of Ikea and Toyota.
zhivota 23 hours ago [-]
It's a shame you guys can't benefit from Chinese auto competition. Here in the Philippines there are great choices from BYD, Geely, Chery, GWM, MG, and probably more I'm forgetting. Even the big legacy brands here have had to lower prices to compete.
SpicyLemonZest 22 hours ago [-]
It is a shame, although I would emphasize that confused thinking on this is not a US-exclusive problem. The EU recently negotiated a trade deal to cut Chinese car sales by 50%.
georgemcbay 1 days ago [-]
I believe that having an integrated global community (not just 'the west') is much better for humanity than regional isolationism.
But I don't blame any country for disassociating with the US. Not just because Trump is our president, but more so that we elected him, twice.
heresie-dabord 22 hours ago [-]
> we elected him, twice.
Those watching can see that the oligarchs, the economic platform, and the propaganda delivery system are in position to groom the selected voter base for the long term.
The opposition to this open corruption and mayhem (gerrymandering, voter bribery) is only leading nationally by ... 8 points.
trimethylpurine 23 hours ago [-]
Half of Europeans vote right. Just like the US.
This is about privacy and annoying ads everywhere. Europeans hate Google for the same reasons we do. Is that so hard to believe?
People everywhere want the same things you do.
xienze 23 hours ago [-]
> Half of Europeans vote right.
<insert "European right-wing is actually further left than America's left wing" comment here>
trimethylpurine 23 hours ago [-]
Huh. I haven't seen that to be the case. But I suppose you can put whatever you like in arrow brackets and it might execute in some people's brains like it does in the browser.
23 hours ago [-]
avazhi 23 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
hobo123 22 hours ago [-]
I'm sure there's have been startups (even funded with public tax money) that do just that, and they probably fared just as "well" as those "European search engines" and similar startups.
gvfsa 1 days ago [-]
I’d bet most of those comments are from self-hating American leftists.
mrtksn 23 hours ago [-]
These days the latest trend is to vibe code Adobe and MS alternatives from scratch and they are pretty good, Europe has a golden chance of dropping US software vendors.
Apparently EU bureaucrats think that the MS office alternatives are shitty[0], well they can just tell an AI agent whats shitty and get it fixed.
"Element Pro" is not Open Source. Nor does it even come from the EU. From the outside it's incomprehensible anyone in EU bureaucracy would want something like this, given that there are good OS alternatives.
pjmlp 1 days ago [-]
Programming languages and OS alternatives still missing from the list.
_ph_ 23 hours ago [-]
Any open source software should be considered "international" and there are a lot of European contributions to that universe.
The topic of "European" programming languages is highly interesting in the sense that there were a lot of highly developments done in Europe, but they are often less noticed than the counterparts popular in the US. The reason to look more into them would not be so much today's independence, but more to resurrect good concepts that kind of got ignored by history.
There is the ISLisp standard, of course the treasure chest of languages and works boy Nikolas Wirth and so much more. Europe has many great universities, their creations usually are free.
Of course, you could call Python an European language and Go heavily draws from the Wirth's language family.
pjmlp 23 hours ago [-]
The big difference between ISO languages, which were more relevant during cold war days and the modern open source approach is who gets to contribute the code and where are those repos hosted.
Khronos and RISC-V now have locations outside US for a reason.
wolvesechoes 16 hours ago [-]
> Any open source software should be considered "international"
This so naive only a programmer could say this.
_ph_ 14 hours ago [-]
Would you like to elaborate, if you disagree with my statement? Of course it was very shortened, because the point of my post was an entirely different one.
If you want a longer version: open source software under the normal licenses give you irrevocable rights to use it, as it is open source, you can also administrate it. You have full control over it. That was the core of my statement. Additionally, European authors are major contributors to many of this software. So in what exactly do you disagree with me?
lionkor 1 days ago [-]
Ideally those are free and open source
pjmlp 23 hours ago [-]
That isn't enough, who pushes code and repos location is also relevant.
Anduia 23 hours ago [-]
Are you proposing forks of existing languages but in gitlab, and only european can approve PRs? Or a new language and OS? How does that work in practice when open source is public and users can have VPNs?
pjmlp 22 hours ago [-]
Yep, security and digital sovereignty required control of the whole chain.
Bill of materials, digital sovereignty and attack vectors, see xz attack.
onel 22 hours ago [-]
Still in it's infancy but Moose OS is fully EU built
github.com/onmoose/os
CodeCompost 1 days ago [-]
I used mailbox.org briefly but was very heavily disappointed in it. Canceled my account and moved to Proton.
sebtron 1 days ago [-]
Why? I have been using mailbox.org for a few years and I am very happy with it.
DavideNL 23 hours ago [-]
Not OP, but the Proton UX / UI is far superior to Mailbox.org - which i personally find hard to navigate and disorganized...
throawayonthe 15 hours ago [-]
i pay for mailbox.org but i never use the webmailer haha, they support IMAP/SMTP
28304283409234 23 hours ago [-]
I'm still on fastmail because I use *@domain.name and Proton only supports a very limited number of emailaddresses, and only 3(!) domains. Sadly.
Pfeil 22 hours ago [-]
I like the UI simplicity of posteo. They still have quite some advanced features like encrypted address books and more, with good documentation on the implications. No regrets so far, using it since beginning of the year or so.
Markoff 22 hours ago [-]
Proton not supporting third party apps and requiring minimum Android 10 to launch their app can keep their app for themselves, clearly they don't want more users.
ReptileMan 23 hours ago [-]
European alternatives - mostly shit produced in China with different badge when it comes to physical stuff. The rest is digital services with userbase smaller than the dev team. It is actually good demonstration how pathetic our production capacity has become. And the industries where we actually punch quite well - Henkel, VSM, Tyrolit are missing.
And lets not with Coca Cola alternatives. It is the funniest joke of the year so far.
tancop 22 hours ago [-]
Coca Cola is kind of a solved problem since LabCoatz made a good reverse engineered version. If the company decides to leave Europe any of their former bottlers can start making it under a different name, and it's not breaking any American laws because the formula was never patented.
ReptileMan 22 hours ago [-]
it is kinda not of a solved problem. That is from a person that right now has probably 10 different flavoring cola combinations aging in bottles. You can get an awesome drinks. That are first cousins or fraternal twins. But not identical twins.
Btw - making your own drinks is really great value - it makes you appreciate the margins on soft drinks. 1lt is probably 10c or so with carbonation included.
hobo123 22 hours ago [-]
That's actually where competition is easy enough that it produces something worthwhile. Afri Cola and Fritz Cola aren't bad at all (even if their market share is only a footnote to Coke and Pepsi).
ReptileMan 22 hours ago [-]
That is not how it works with beverages. They are just not substitutes for your favorite carbonated style drink. Once you are hooked on a subset of them - favorite cola, tonic, bitter lemon - the others will always taste a bit off. I moved from Dr. Pepper to cherry cola is not sentence often heard. Or vice versa.
Markoff 22 hours ago [-]
pff, that disgusting sugar water is vastly inferior to Kofola (heck even Pepsi is somehow drinkable more that than sweet crap)
but I agree with first paragraph
itx_z33shan 23 hours ago [-]
The privacy aspect is definitely the strongest driver here. As developers, dealing with GDPR and data sovereignty makes local processing or EU-based hosting a lot more appealing than it used to be. It feels less about nationalism and more about strict compliance and building user trust.
avazhi 23 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
stiray 22 hours ago [-]
It is simple, if all the American sites would be respective to people as HN is, there would be no need for this topic. It is not that we are anti American people/sites/software, we are anti policy on our data or/and abusive practices. Why it doesnt bother Americans is beyond my comprehension. Or why you understand it as anti American.
avazhi 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
stiray 22 hours ago [-]
Why would we? There is HN, works well, respects our privacy, doesnt abuse its users, so why would be any need for EU alternative?
I fail to see your logic, are you claiming everything American is bad and should be replaced?
As I really dont see it this way, I am using HN but on the other side I will never use Facebook.
And if there would be such an abusive site as Facebook in EU, I wouldnt use it either.
keiferski 23 hours ago [-]
These sites are not really representative of the average European person, who will continue to use American and Chinese etc. products because they are cheaper or better quality than local alternatives.
The real European alternatives need to be better products, full stop, than the competition. And there certainly are many - personally I really like Allegro more than Amazon. But I use it because it’s better, not because I’m trying to make a political statement.
Pfeil 22 hours ago [-]
And this have to be known, most importantly. Even within Europe, marketing of European products is limited compared to US or Chinese Marketing budget.
avazhi 22 hours ago [-]
That was indeed my point.
So really what we have with this post (on an American website) is just blatant performative nonsense.
Pfeil 22 hours ago [-]
Why not? HN is not critical infrastructure. We do not depend on it even if we use it. We are also not anti-american, we just see that capitalism reached a fkd up state where it supports anti-democratic and specifically fascism patterns. Europeans that are very aware of this also avoid Spotify, even though it is EU. Using EU services is a good heuristic, though, simply because the issues are usually within the big players.
Furthermore for Visual Studio Code it lists only IntelliJ IDEA as an alternative. There are also alternatives such as VSCodium, Neovim, or Emacs. In some cases, the alternative to an American company should not be a European company, but rather free software.
I agree in theory but VSCodium wouldn't be a thing without Microsoft continuing development of VS Code so you're dependent on American software nonetheless. If the goal is true sovereignty then VSCodium isn't it unless it becomes a truly independent fork aka when LibreOffice forked OpenOffice.
Snickers for example shows first "Alprose" which I never heard, it's a small company that's not even common IN Switzerland. It lists Julius mainl which if it does chocolate its far from their actual business. And half of the other companies also seem regional niche stuff.
Dunno but gives a very vibe coded vibe
Alps are "Die Alpen" in german, and rose is rose too. So, a rose or a flower in a mountaineous area. It kind of fits to Switzerland.
Renaming operations are often strange: for instance, the name Raider before it then became Twix. I always found the renaming part peculiar; guess Twix is easier to market than Raider but both names are strange to begin with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twix
I could also swear that Raider tasted better than Twix, but this could be to my aging cells no longer being as performant as they once were. Or they changed the recipe to the worse.
Having said that, I guess that website was AI slop generated, so no wonder it has low quality. I try to avoid AI in general, in particular the low quality slops; sadly youtube is being infected with it, I can no longer watch shorts - so many are just AI spam nowadays.
My parents also swear raider was the better product. Not sure if I ever tried one.
From your wikipedia link
> The name is a portmanteau of "twin sticks
For consistency it ought to be called Unix.
At least that's the vibe I'm getting from this site.
Not scooters though.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/13/us-governmen...
It's generally beneficial to have more choice both from a free-market and a democratic-safeguards perspective.
Having a common (second) language is a first step towards understanding each other's culture better. And that in turn facilitates a federal EU. It can't be done overnight, but it is a goal I wish we would pursue more actively.
One or two years at school would be enough, which means that the entire problem could be fixed in a year.
But that's not how things work in real life. Just because something is a good idea doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The idea that a language, any language, can be learned in a year or two is not consistent with observation. Just think of any immigrant you have ever ran into in real life.
However, if this ever got big enough to hurt America's economy in a measurable way, the press would be all over it and Americans would retaliate. Considering how our trade is structured, Europe would experience a lot more pain.
In other words, I think it's cool that you raise visibility to your products. I think you should do it. But you'll lose more than we will if this gets too serious at America's expense.
Optimally we should all develop specialities and maintain a local reserve in most key industries. But all out of war isn't in our interest.
There’s a lot of things the rest of the world has no or bad backups for.
The US is choosing to leverage its position without much concern for those consequences right now. The rest of the world is busy routing around that, and the leverage is slowly reducing.
It will take time: the US was a key member of the world economy. But there’s frequent new reminders of why it’s necessary.
I'm not saying you have abused us, but maybe you should try to understand the perspectives that brought us to the current situation. Americans have complaints too.
I won't respond further messages on this thread because I think we should stop fighting. Maybe we aren't brothers but we are cousins. The real threats are elsewhere.
> I understand why you feel what you feel, but many people here also feel we've been abused for decades.
That's on them. If people allow themselves to be misled that is not something that other countries should take into account when determining their foreign policy. If there is an abuser here then it is perfectly clear where that abuser is located.
> I'm not saying you have abused us, but maybe you should try to understand the perspectives that brought us to the current situation. Americans have complaints too.
And that's fine. But then you should do something about the root cause of those complaints and if and when you do you will find that maybe Europe and the bulk of the population of the USA have a lot in common.
> I won't respond further messages on this thread because I think we should stop fighting.
You are the one promoting that attitude with your original comment.
These delusional beliefs have already lead to aggression and animosity towards the EU and the rest of the world, which is why this is happening in the first place.
What should the EU do? The current US administration is destroying every partnership you've built, giving up all of its soft power, it's single-handedly driving the world off a proverbial cliff with the war in Iran which will lead to yet another once-in-a-generation economic crisis and a new wave of totally preventable human suffering.
And for what? To persecute a mythical enemy of the Great American Prosperity? To divert attention away from domestic economic failures, unbelievable wealth disparity, from the fact the your country is ran by sadistic pedophiles? To intentionally weaken the rest of the world? To perpetuate a genocide?
The only sensible thing for the EU to do is to get off the damn ride. There's nothing we can do, short of becoming a vassal state of the US, that would appease the current US administration.
Framing this as an attack on the US is just typical DARVO tactics (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) and it's exactly why the EU needs to get away.
The US has gone out of its way to prove that it is an unreliable partner. To Europe, to Canada, to its allies all over the world. It is obvious that that would result in re-evaluation of the relationship. You can't just upend 80 years of building up a relationship and expect that it will be without consequences. Just like your spouse would have a right to re-evaluate their relationship with you if you punched them in the face to remind them that 'you hold all the cards'.
If you believe that the EU is 'starting it' you are exemplifying the mentality that lead us to where we are today: that might makes right and that if you're abused you should just take it and that even an attempt to leave is considered betrayal.
Mutt here. It’s annoying how feckless the European pushback is. Half of these alternatives either run significant rails through America or are insignificantly small. Meanwhile, our ambassador to Greece is busy selling her sugar daddy’s natural gas to Albania and Bulgaria [1]. (Nobody is even pretending the folks buying her corruption will be prosecuted. Athens held up Russian sanctions to get one of their tycoons a carve-out.)
[1] https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/at-davos-kimberly-guilfo...
When sensitive data was a topic even 15 years ago we built European only solutions because America and it's barely existing privacy laws were not to trust. (Built software for government, universities and other companies back then)
From my POV this has nothing to do with orange guy but it's an ongoing trend of benefiting from our customer and data protection laws.
It seems like a provincial mindset.
I think you're attributing Big Tech's bad behavior to politicians where you should be attributing politicians' bad behavior to Big Tech's lobbying.
You can also read the website. It lists reasons why people should move. No mention of Donald Trump.
That makes perfect sense. Half of Europeans vote right, just like Americans. There's no need for injecting super villains and otherism into the conversation.
But I don't blame any country for disassociating with the US. Not just because Trump is our president, but more so that we elected him, twice.
Those watching can see that the oligarchs, the economic platform, and the propaganda delivery system are in position to groom the selected voter base for the long term.
The opposition to this open corruption and mayhem (gerrymandering, voter bribery) is only leading nationally by ... 8 points.
This is about privacy and annoying ads everywhere. Europeans hate Google for the same reasons we do. Is that so hard to believe?
People everywhere want the same things you do.
<insert "European right-wing is actually further left than America's left wing" comment here>
Apparently EU bureaucrats think that the MS office alternatives are shitty[0], well they can just tell an AI agent whats shitty and get it fixed.
[0] https://gizmodo.com/european-commission-staff-really-dislike...
The topic of "European" programming languages is highly interesting in the sense that there were a lot of highly developments done in Europe, but they are often less noticed than the counterparts popular in the US. The reason to look more into them would not be so much today's independence, but more to resurrect good concepts that kind of got ignored by history.
There is the ISLisp standard, of course the treasure chest of languages and works boy Nikolas Wirth and so much more. Europe has many great universities, their creations usually are free.
Of course, you could call Python an European language and Go heavily draws from the Wirth's language family.
Khronos and RISC-V now have locations outside US for a reason.
This so naive only a programmer could say this.
If you want a longer version: open source software under the normal licenses give you irrevocable rights to use it, as it is open source, you can also administrate it. You have full control over it. That was the core of my statement. Additionally, European authors are major contributors to many of this software. So in what exactly do you disagree with me?
See how other economies are doing it.
Example,
https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/other-site-policies/g...
https://go.dev/blog/hello-china
And lets not with Coca Cola alternatives. It is the funniest joke of the year so far.
Btw - making your own drinks is really great value - it makes you appreciate the margins on soft drinks. 1lt is probably 10c or so with carbonation included.
but I agree with first paragraph
I fail to see your logic, are you claiming everything American is bad and should be replaced?
As I really dont see it this way, I am using HN but on the other side I will never use Facebook.
And if there would be such an abusive site as Facebook in EU, I wouldnt use it either.
The real European alternatives need to be better products, full stop, than the competition. And there certainly are many - personally I really like Allegro more than Amazon. But I use it because it’s better, not because I’m trying to make a political statement.
So really what we have with this post (on an American website) is just blatant performative nonsense.